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Beginner

EHWIC-VA-DSL-B to be used with VDSL2 Vectoring?

hi all,

i am using a cisco 1941 for my home vdsl connection. at this time i am using an external modem but i plan to replace it with the EHWIC-VA-DSL-B. i live in germany, so i require the annex b dsl over isdn variant of the ehwic. but before i make the purchase, i would like to know if it also supports vdsl2 with vectoring?

 

the spec sheet is not listing the itu-t standard but there are some factors that let me hope the card can handle it. first thing is the mentioned speeds of 100 down and 50 up. then i found out that the ehwic is running the same firmware then smaller cisco routers which do support vectoring, like 887 or 886 series routers. some other factors speak against it, e.g. the missing 30a profile. (can maybe fixed by firmware?)

 

i did not find a final statement or confirmation through my web research. maybe someone on the support forum can shed some light into this. 

 

would be happy about some feedback.

cheers

1 ACCEPTED SOLUTION

Accepted Solutions

Hello Felix,

Hello Felix,

It's been a while.

I've migrated my line to another location for my next service. I'm now connected to an outdoor cabinet with vectoring capable hardware.

See attachment for more info.

My line is set to 99 Mbps DL and 27 Mbps UL. Pretty cool for copper lines ! Also the INP is much higher than yours :

                  DS Channel1     DS Channel0   US Channel1       US Channel0
Speed (kbps):             0            99071             0             27520

Actual INP:            3.00            30.00          4.00             30.00

I had no INP on the old line, which was not able to scale up the speed. So yes vectoring is working well on the EHWIC-A or B

Regards

View solution in original post

15 REPLIES 15
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I,I'm in switzerland and I

I,

I'm in switzerland and I know it's not really the same situation but our provider (Swisscom) just updated an approved list for VDSL2.
I'm sure the tech spec are close than yours. They stated that Cisco 887 VA routers are compatible with Vectoring  with these infos https://www.swisscom.ch/dam/swisscom/en/ws/documents/E_BBCS-Documents/E_BBCS_Supporting-Document_Proved-Equipment_V14-12.pdf:

VC (Vectoring compatible) 
FW: 15.3(3)M4 - DP: A2pv6C038q.24j
SRA and G.INP must be enabled in configuration

So visibly it's principally a firmware update and some config to do to perform vectoring. I personnaly just bought a EHWIC-VA-DSL-A to test this. Unfortunately I didn't found the way to have access to firmware download yet. Because my card has not the last firmware for Vectoring i cannot test.

On cisco's website, they shows that the FW is the same for 887-897-EHWIC so with the last firmware it should be OK. 

I hope this will help.

Jim

Beginner

Hi Jim,it's great to have

Hi Jim,

it's great to have some feedback on this because it's tough to get information about this topic.

I have also found out that the firmware is identical for the EHWIC and the 800 series routers. This made me hope at first. But there is one thing that does not and that is the profile support.

The EHWICs only support profiles up to 17a as per spec sheet. They might support 30a as well with updated firmware but only if it is equipped with the Broadcom BC6306 chip. The firmware release notes say that at least. So far I could not find out if the EHWICs do have that chip installed.

From my research on the web it seems that 30a is required for vectoring connections, at least on longer distance lines or lines with bad noise margin. The listed speeds for the EHWIC seem to be fine, but I assume it also depends on the service providers requirements. And if they need 30a, I can tell them about my 150Mbps capable EHWIC all day long.

I am very curious if you can make it run with Swisscom. Which speeds do they offer with vectoring in Switzerland? Deutsche Telekom is offering 100 down and 40 up in Germany.

 

Cheers

Felix

 

EDIT: Maybe good news. http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s357975

 

The Broadcom 6368 is installed on the EHWIC as far as I know. From the link above it seems it is combined with the companion chip 6306. This would indeed include profile 30a and would make me feel a lot better when spending few hundred €s on the WIC. :)

Hi Felix,I've been working 7

Hi Felix,

I've been working 7 years for Swisscom, starting at the begining of VDSL2 until last year so I'm able to give you some information about the deployment in Switzerland. It could be different in Germany but I'm pretty sure this will be the same that in here because both companies worked togheter 7 years ago. 

First, the vectoring is totally independant of the spectrum profile (17a, 30a and so). The spectrum profile give you more bandwidth to have more carrier. That allows more speed 100 Mbps+ down and 40 Mbps+ up. 
In Switzerland, the 30a spectrum has been refused on the network, because of too high freq spectrum that perturabe hardly the lines. We only use max 17a profile for the lines, with "expected use" of 30a in bulding only (situation where, a DSLAM is installed in technical room in a bulding) but I never saw this in use now. 

Next thing is line lenght and section. These parameters are keys to the attenuation and spectrum performance. I'm in a more or less 1km line lenght. This allows me a 20Mbps/4Mbps speed. With vectoring it sould be arround 30/7. 
Personnally I wouldn't expect to get high speed under 600-700 meters line length. VDSL2 is very sensitive to lenght and with my experience, after 1,2 Km you got huge perf drops. 2Km is really the last (and bad) distance you can use without very high problems.

To be honnest, 100/40 Mbps should be on line not longest than 250 meters (from DSLAM). So not very common situation (at least here in Switzerland) for now. Swisscom is currently installing FTTS system which equip DSLAM in the street (in under road chamber) to get small distances around 250m max. 

From what I've seen, Vectoring add good performance until 800-1000m lenght lines. After that, benefits are near to 0. Best scheme was a +40-60% on line from 200-800m and +10-30% between 800-1200m depend on cables. If you get 0.8mm diameter copper line, you got better improve, 0.6mm less, and 0.4 very small improve.

To reach 100/40 the use of 17a + Vectoring is good enough. Anyway Cisco tell the EHWIC support 17a max profile, I don't know if a future firmware release can add 30a or if it's physical onchip.

I've ordered a VDSL2 line and I will perform some practice with my card. I will let you know how to play and check your line. I first need to find a solution to get the new firmware anyway !

 

EDIT ===

To answer to your question, max speed allowed on VDSL2 is 100/20 Mbps. 


Cheers

Jim

 

Beginner

Hi Jim,it's good to hear that

Hi Jim,

it's good to hear that profile 30a is not a requirement for vectoring. 

Unfortunately I don't know my line length. But I am already running a VDSL2 connection with Deutsche Telekom. Speed on paper is 50/10. My actual speed is a bit lower at 46/9.6 but I am quite happy with that. Maybe my line can handle some good speeds with vectoring.

I did read some stuff on Wikipedia about DSL and it says that the Annex B version (over ISDN) is the most vulnerable variant in regards to line length. So maybe my speeds are an indication for short line length (just a guess). But of course I know that 100/40 is just the paper speeds and it's unlikely to get there.

I appreciate your explanation by the way. It really helps and is very informative.

Maybe I can help you in return with the firmware? What's your problem in getting it?

And of course I am very interested in your results, once you setup your connection.

Cheers

Felix

 

Hi Felix,46/9.6 on ISDN VDSL

Hi Felix,

46/9.6 on ISDN VDSL is very good and are the "usefull" part of the "raw" 50/10 bandwidth. I don't want to give you some high hope but I'm pretty sure you are less than 600m of the DSLAM which is good. 
Effectively the Annex B (ISDN) version of VDSL is more affected by distance. I have no real answer to why but I suppose that two digital signals are less friendly each other on the wires. Another part is that ISDN carriers consume some part of the UL0 and DL0 carrier range of VDSL2 in low frequencies. That's a reason why you have less bandwidth on Annex B.

As the HWIC is expensive, considering buying one analog just to get more speed is a little crazy I would say. But if you have a possibility to swap to Analog (EHWIC-VA-DSL-A), you can ask your provider to estimate the max bandwidth you can have. If you are under 500m ,swapping from ISDN to POTS should give you extra 20 Mbps DL and maybe 5-10 UL. I cannot be precise, your provider too. They can provide you an estimate (calculated) value only. 

Anyway, it's dependent of the ISDN or POTS telephony. If you need ISDN telephony so you are limited to Annex B. 


In fact curently I have no service contract so I cannot have access to new firmware or IOS update. I'm currently looking for the right SmartNet contract to take to have access to this.


Cheers

Jim

 

Beginner

Hi Jim,actually it is not

Hi Jim,

actually it is not possible to use POTS here in Germany. But as you already mentioned I am obviously pretty close to the DLSAM. Gotta go out and search for it. *lol*

 

There is a directory online where many  are listed but I don't know how up to date it is and it is only updated by users and not by the service providers. Anyway, according to that the closest DLSAM would be over 1km away. Not sure if this is realistic with my speeds.

Right now my carrier does not even offer vectoring in my area, but I do not want to buy the WIC just to find out it can't do vectoring 2 month later.

 

Cheers

Felix

PS. Feel free to PM me for some help with other stuff. ;)

Hi Felix,Wooo strange ! No

Hi Felix,

Wooo strange ! No POTS ? anyway those tech will be EOL soon. Swisscom announced total shutdown of ISDN end 2017 ;). 

You can try to search yeah but if there is some FTTS DSLAM you can search for a while :) 

I will update the post once I have my line connected. 
 

Cheers

Jim

Hi Felix,I'm back with my

Hi Felix,

I'm back with my line. I've set up my VDSL card and line but for now, I don't have vectoring because of the firmware of the card. I'm currently waiting for my Smartnet contract to get the new firmware.

For now you can see what profile you have with command : 
Show controller vdsl < number >

You can see my output in attachment :
File VDSL.txt shows the status of the line and the band status. Band U3 is allowed only on 30a profile (therefore it's N/A for me as i'm in 17a)

The vdsl line status.txt shows the actual bitrate configured by the ISP (33'023 / 7726) means the max raw datarate. I'm currently shaped at 10000/2000. My choice regarding my abo.

 

I will try to get more about vectoring. What I've heard was that vectoring strategy for Swisscom is focused only on outdoor cabinet or FTTS DSLAM. As I'm getting signal from a local Central, it's possible I will never get vectoring until new extension over FTTS.

Cheers

Jim

 

 

 

Beginner

Hi Jim,I guess we both sit in

Hi Jim,

I guess we both sit in the same boat then. I got my VDSL card in the meantime as well. So I am already quite familiar with the output you attached here. Right now I am not at home, but I will upload my stats as well later on. From my head I think I have a different firmware running on mine.

I am still very interested in your vectoring results. Although I might never get it, I still at least get kind of a confirmation that the EHWIC can handle it.

 

Cheers

Felix

 

 

EDIT #####

I have attached my VDSL controller stats as well now. I actually just found out it throws lots of CRC errors. Interesting. I do not feel any impact when using my connection. Any idea why these CRCs might show up?

Hi Felix,

Hi Felix,

Sorry for late delay !

I've inspected your stats. Shows interesting things. First, you are already vectorized. you can see under Actual INP line :

Actual INP:            0.00             2.01          0.00              3.00

CRC errors are not good, but the "feelings effects" depend on the increment speed. If you have 1000 CRC a day, after few month you will have a lot after 200 days, but you will probably not feel anything. On the other way if you have 1000 CRC minutes, it will probably degrade the performance on the line and you will feel it directly. So I will say don't take care of if you don't feel it.

This is your actual performance :

Speed (kbps):             0            51392             0             10048

This mean your access speed is 51 Mbps Down and 10 Mpbs up (brut, so probably 48/9 usable)

These line are showing the quality and max speed attainable :

Noise Margin:             8.1 dB                  8.6 dB
Attainable Rate:        69228 kbits/s            17584 kbits/s

Under 10 dB it's normal quality, but if you drop under 8 or 7, you will have stability issue. The max attainable is more to show you dream, most of the time you can drop 15-20% of this value to have a more or less usable realistic value.


For me all is looking fine if your line stay within this value. Anyway in ISDN line, i can tell you that your line is ROCKING really good.
In switzerland it's really hard to have this with ISDN line.

Cheers.

Beginner

Hey Jim,

Hey Jim,

no worries mate. You reply when you have the time, that's alright.

If you say I am already vectorized, what do you mean by that? My provider would only need to activate it? So far they are not offering Vectoring and I have a bad feeling that this will not change in the near future.

Thanks for the explanation with the noise margin values. It is actually quite funny because I just rechecked my stats when I read your post, and I found them to be less good on the downstream. I have only around 6.5dB and sometimes it dropped down to 4.x. When pinging across the internet with these values, indeed I got around 5% packet loss. But luckily I found the reason for this. I have upgraded the firmware of my WIC, which we spoke earlier about. The one with possible Vectoring support. This was the only thing I changed. Today I switched back to the previous firmware and suddenly I am at 8.5dB again.

Any ideas why the firmware of the WIC can have such an impact on the line quality?

Hi Felix,

Hi Felix,

The firmware is very important because it enable or disable some feature. For example Swisscom need a specific firmware to enable SRA and G.INP in the HWIC to get vectoring working properly with their equipment. 

The firmware normally don't impact directly on the noise margin. What could change is that once you go back on the old firmware the line is synch down. The handshake process start back and the line is "analyzed" again and could be better at this time. Anyway the firmware can act on how the chipset modulate the carriers, so it could be better on some higher or lower frequencies. 

If you have a SNMP server, you can monitor the HWIC and see if the graphs are stable or not. I'm using PRTG to monitor my entire network (free with 100 sensors).

I've read topics saying that the line "INP" is related to the vectorization. So at home I have all INP at 0. Your line shows more than 0 meaning that vectorization process should be active. Unfortunately I cannot tell you more. 
Normally vectorization is enabled in DSLAM. It's transparent, because DSLAM can choose to use vectorization with "compatibility profile" : The DSLAM is configured to use vectoring but will use profile with "non vectoring compatible device". So you will never see any difference. Once you put a "compatible vectoring device" the DSLAM will see it and then start using vectoring to take advantage of that.

Cheers.
Jim

Hello Felix,

Hello Felix,

It's been a while.

I've migrated my line to another location for my next service. I'm now connected to an outdoor cabinet with vectoring capable hardware.

See attachment for more info.

My line is set to 99 Mbps DL and 27 Mbps UL. Pretty cool for copper lines ! Also the INP is much higher than yours :

                  DS Channel1     DS Channel0   US Channel1       US Channel0
Speed (kbps):             0            99071             0             27520

Actual INP:            3.00            30.00          4.00             30.00

I had no INP on the old line, which was not able to scale up the speed. So yes vectoring is working well on the EHWIC-A or B

Regards

View solution in original post

Beginner

Hi Jim,

Hi Jim,

just saw that you put in another reply with the final answer. Thanks very much for confirming it. I still do not have vectoring support showing up in my region, but good to know that I'll be prepared for it.

Cheers

Felix

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