Converged Access Wireless Architecture

[RON ROYSTON]

Am I missing something, or is Meraki clearly the best choice and value in next-generation 802.11ac wireless?  Meraki delivers control/data plane separation, wIPS, CMX, Locations Tracking, all the high end features (orderable under 2 skus, btw).

Cisco’s Converged Access solution paired with the Prime, MSE-CMX, MSE-wIPS, management overlay appears to achieve performance and feature parity with Meraki, but:

• requires the use of a 3650 or 3850 model switch to match performance and feature parity with Meraki.
• Performance parity with Meraki requires specialized Cisco 3650 or 3850 model switches, and atleast 3 servers – Prime Infrastructure, MSE-CMX, and MSE-wIPS.
• Cisco CMX functionality (Foot traffic by time of day, new vs repeat visitors, dwell time, splash/land page based on location, etc.) begins at 200 access points.
• Cisco Prime Infrastructure functionality begins at 25 access points.
• Promo bundles including features (aka management) begin at 50 access points / 10 3850 switches / $186k list. onenetwkadv

$12,490 for 10 Meraki MR32 Access Points with 5 years of service.

$85,000 for 10 Cisco 3702 Access Points with 5 years of service.  Limited features (CMX does not actually work here).  PLUS, an approx $7,500 of additional server installation services.

In other words, can you tell me why I would want to install a Cisco WLAN over a Meraki?  The Maeraki delivers the most features and has the best patented protocol / architecture for separating control and data traffic.  Or, no?  ...Right?

- Ron Royston, CCIE #6824

[Leo Laohoo]

$85,000 for 10 Cisco 3702 Access Points with 5 years of service.

By far, this is the MOST EXPENSIVE unit price for the 3700 I've ever seen. 

In other words, can you tell me why I would want to install a Cisco WLAN over a Meraki?  The Maeraki delivers the most features and has the best patented protocol / architecture for separating control and data traffic.  Or, no? 

ROFL.   We need to know what you are trying to accomplish or achieve.  Any salesman for Product A will always make Product B look bad.  It's a given.  

Besides, what do you mean "5 years of service"?  Only "gullible" people buy service maintenance contracts (or warranty) for Cisco APs.  We have >4K APs and none of them have maintenance contracts but I can still RMA every one of them.  

Cisco Prime Infrastructure functionality begins at 25 access points.

PI started supporting Meraki APs in the latest release, 2.2, which was released on 19 December 2014.  I really would NOT want to see/discover what hidden monsters are hidden under the first release.  

[RON ROYSTON]

Thanks for the feedback.  Sounds like you are covering approx 300 acres of space.  That's a large install!  The $85k I mentioned is the entry price for the Cisco WLAN system, not just the AP's.

Most organizations WLAN's are well under the threshold of economical sense for a full featured Cisco WLAN system (approx 6 city blocks of coverage).  Full featured = AP's + distributed controllers (req'd for CCA) + CMX server, Prime Server, wIPS server, licensing minimums, etc.  I have ran the numbers in Excel, and read the ordering guides, proly a dozen times.  AP Smartnet is actually an insignificant consideration but was calculated in the spirit of apples to apples-ness.  Simplicity is a significant differentiator.

The valuable automation, data, and reporting from a well crafted Enterprise Mobility solution enables your organization to better serve and learn about consumers at your venues (B2consumer), employees stay productive able to work from anywhere/any device (B2employee/BYOD).  CMX and location services are key to Enterprise Mobility.  Remember, even if your organization does not significantly benefit from CMX analytics, it will benefit greatly from the enhanced employee mobility.

Contact me anytime. I can help you setup a custom LAMP to AJAX in select JSON data from your CMX or BYOD and present it slick w HTML5/CSS3/masonry type presentation and or store and record it.  I sell Cisco via my employer, a US-based Gold Partner.

- Ron Royston, CCIE #6824

[Leo Laohoo]

Sounds like you are covering approx 300 acres of space. 

>95 schools.  Each school has multiple separated buildings.  90 schools are all connected back to the central core network via our own dedicated fibre optic running at 1- or 10 Gbps.  

AP Smartnet is actually an insignificant consideration but was calculated in the spirit of apples to apples-ness.  

If you are smart, you DO NOT pay SmartNet on your AP.  Zero.  Nada.  Replacement APs arrive after 10 business days.  Don't like the delay, keep 5 spares.  That's what I've got for my 4K AP fleet:  Just 5 spares.  Saves me a bundle in SNT.    You have no idea how many times we get hassled by our vendors about SNT.  

Vendors:  You won't be able to RMA the APs without SNT.

Us:  Really?  Have you heard of Cisco Limited Lifetime Warranty?

Vendors:  *cricket*, *cricket*, *cricket*

The $85k I mentioned is the entry price for the Cisco WLAN system, not just the AP's

Can you state the parts?  I'm curious to know what WLC model was quoted.   3650/3850 ... yeah ... that's one expensive option ... if it works.  I'm chatting with a number of big US-based WLAN implementors and three of them have come up with one catch word when doing Converged Access:  DON'T.  And this is from one who happens to be a code beta-tester for the 3650/3850 and 5760.  Common joke we have is the so-called "software parity" that Cisco had wished it wasn't uttered at all.   You want to make a Cisco SE for WLAN squirm?  Just ask:  So when is software parity going to happen?

CMX ... We've not used it here in Australia.  

[RON ROYSTON]

Cisco purchased Meraki just like Airespace.  It's a superior product/system and is ahead of the standards committees.  Prime Infrastructure 2.2 does not support Meraki AP's (link).

Line Number	Item Name	Description	Service Duration	Lead Time	Included Item	Quantity	ListPrice	Extended ListPrice	Discount %	Selling Price
1.0	ONENTWK-ADV-02-10	Bundle 2xC3650X-48FWD-S  10xAP3702I Multi Domain	N/A	14 days	No	1	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
1.1	WS-C3650-48FWD-S	Catalyst 3650 48 Port FPoE 2x10G Uplink w/5 AP licenses IPB	N/A	14 days	No	2	9,920.00	19,840.00	0	19,840.00
1.1.0.1	CON-SNT-WSC3654D	SMARTNET 8X5XNBD Catalyst 3650 48 Port FPoE 2x10G Uplink	60 month(s)	N/A	No	2	3,720.00	7,440.00	0	7,440.00
1.1.1	S3650UK9-33SE	CAT3650 Universal k9 image	N/A	14 days	Yes	2	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
1.1.2	PWR-C2-1025WAC	1025W AC Config 2 Power Supply	N/A	14 days	Yes	2	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
1.1.3	CAB-TA-NA	North America AC Type A Power Cable	N/A	14 days	No	2	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
1.1.4	LIC-CTIOS-1A	AP adder license for IOS based Wireless LAN Controllers	N/A	14 days	Yes	10	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
1.1.4.0.1	CON-SNT-LCTIOS1A	SMARTNET 8X5XNBD AP adder license for	60 month(s)	N/A	No	10	130.00	1,300.00	0	1,300.00
1.2	AIR-CAP3702I-AK910	802.11ac Ctrlr 10APs 4x4:3SS w/CleanAir; Int; A Reg Domain	N/A	14 days	No	1	11,960.00	11,960.00	0	11,960.00
1.2.0.1	CON-SNT-C372IA10	SMARTNET 8X5XNBD 802.11ac Ctrlr 10APs	60 month(s)	N/A	No	1	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
1.2.1	AIR-AP-BRACKET-1	802.11n AP Low Profile Mounting Bracket (Default)	N/A	14 days	Yes	10	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
1.2.2	SWAP3700-RCOVRY-K9	Cisco 3700 Series IOS WIRELESS LAN RECOVERY	N/A	14 days	Yes	10	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
1.2.3	AIR-AP-T-RAIL-R	Ceiling Grid Clip for Aironet APs - Recessed Mount (Default)	N/A	14 days	Yes	10	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
1.2.4	AIR-CAP3702I-ABULK	BOM Level AP3700i Bulk PID for A reg domain	N/A	14 days	Yes	10	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
1.2.4.0.1	CON-SNT-C372IAB	SMARTNET 8X5XNBD BOM Level AP3700i Bu	60 month(s)	N/A	No	10	300.00	3,000.00	0	3,000.00
						SubTotal				43,540.00
2.0	R-PI2X-K9	Cisco Prime Infrastructure 2.x	N/A	21 days	No	1	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
2.0.1	CON-ECMU-PI2XK9B	SWSS UPGRADES NULL SKU-No line item services included	60 month(s)	N/A	No	1	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
2.1	L-PILMS42A-25	Prime Infrastructure LMS 4.2A - 25 Device Base Lic	N/A	21 days	Yes	1	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
2.2	L-PILMS42-KIT	Prime Infrastructure - LMS License Kit	N/A	21 days	Yes	1	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
2.3	L-PI2X-BASE	Prime Infrastructure 2.x Base License	N/A	21 days	No	1	95.00	95.00	0	95.00
2.3.0.1	CON-ECMU-PI2XBASE	SWSS UPGRADES Prime Infrastructure 2.x Base License	60 month(s)	N/A	No	1	95.00	95.00	0	95.00
2.4	R-PI21-SW-K9	Prime Infrastructure 2.1 Software	N/A	21 days	No	1	25.00	25.00	0	25.00
2.4.0.1	CON-ECMU-PI21SW	SWSS UPGRADES Prime Infrastructure 2.1 Software	60 month(s)	N/A	No	1	25.00	25.00	0	25.00
2.5	L-PI2X-LF-25	Prime Infrastructure 2.x - Lifecycle - 25 Device Lic	N/A	21 days	No	1	2,995.00	2,995.00	0	2,995.00
2.5.0.1	CON-ECMU-PI2XLF25	SWSS UPGRADES PI 2.x - Lifecycle - 25 Device Lic	60 month(s)	N/A	No	1	2,995.00	2,995.00	0	2,995.00
2.6	L-PI2X-AS-25	Prime Infrastructure 2.x - Assurance - 25 Device Lic	N/A	21 days	No	1	2,995.00	2,995.00	0	2,995.00
2.6.0.1	CON-ECMU-PI2XAS25	SWSS UPGRADES PI 2.x - Assurance - 50 Device Lic	60 month(s)	N/A	No	1	2,995.00	2,995.00	0	2,995.00
						SubTotal				12,220.00
3.0	L-MSE-7.0-K9	MSE Virtual Appliance (Please select L-MSE-PAK for MSE Lic)	N/A	14 days	No	1	4,995.00	4,995.00	0	4,995.00
3.0.1	CON-SAU-LMSE7K	SW APP SUPP + UPGR MSE Virtual Appliance	60 month(s)	N/A	No	1	22,485.00	22,485.00	0	22,485.00
						SubTotal				27,480.00
4.0	L-MSE-PAK	MSE License PAK (E Delivery)	N/A	14 days	No	1	0.00	0.00	0	0.00
4.1	L-AD-LS-1AP	1 AP CMX License (Advanced Location Services license)	N/A	14 days	No	10	195.00	1,950.00	0	1,950.00
4.2	L-WIPS-ELM-1AP	1 AP WIPS Enhanced Local Mode license	N/A	14 days	No	10	100.00	1,000.00	0	1,000.00
						SubTotal				2,950.00
						Configset Total				86,190.00

[Leo Laohoo]

Prime Infrastructure 2.2 does not support Meraki AP's (link).

Oops.  Me bad.  

Your shopping list is expensive (I guess) because you've got MSE and CMX but I don't see any WLC.  3650/3850 will "work" as MA/MC but you need a dedicated WLC to act as the Oracle.  You also have SNT for the AP.  

I mean if you have a customer who's quoted to get a "cadillac" CMX then they should be fine with the quote.  Not a lot of organization have gone "all the way" to CMX.  So this is going to be an interesting development.  

[RON ROYSTON]

Appreciate the communication, Leo.  The 2504 WLC does not have the horsepower for 802.11ac - neither does the ISRG2/4000 Router module (VM on UCS-E).

So, that's the least expensive way I can figure to build a 10 AP Cisco Converged Access WLAN. (Actually there is a 2702/3650 onenetwk bundle but 3702 is closer to MR32 features.  Note: Enterprise Mobility applications are extra.  The embedded WLC works fine standalone.

Yea, maybe a dedicated 'oracle' 5760 Wireless LAN Controller is required which would add to the cost...

[Reuben Farrelly]

This is a little OT, but FlexConnect is one way around the performance limitation of the 2500 if you have -ac - since the WLC is then used mostly for command and control, and you are not relying on the 2500 for data traversal.

I have been watching a lot of the new mobility talk in the last few weeks and Cisco don't seem to want to even suggest FlexConnect - just keep hearing how being able to terminate CAPWAP with new mobility is going to be so much faster since the data doesn't need to be carried right the way back to the controller.  But even if it's done in hardware I'm not too sure how it comes to be "better" than not having to encapsulate and decapsulate the end user data at all and drop it straight on a local VLAN...which is exactly what you have with FlexConnect.

Not that FlexConnect is perfect but it's a good way of distributing the load and removing that particular bottleneck from the equation.

[Freerk Terpstra]

Like always it depends on your deployment, but the virtual WLC is pretty awesome (and promising) if you ask me. I have deployed it many times for our customers and even in the more critical setups like VoWLAN with Cisco's 7925G phones, it has been performing good and very reliable. There are some drawbacks like the guest traffic which needs to be routed locally or protected in a VRF, but nothing really major if you ask me. You only pay for the access-points licenses and also the smartnet is much cheaper because there is no hardware involved.

Cisco does see this "trend" and is bringing more and more features to Flexconnect access-points. They even building there own "Virtualizing Cisco Service Provider Wi-Fi core" concept around this product! See for more information about this concept the presentation which I attached to this message. We do use the virtual WLC for our own "Cloud" customers as well.

[RON ROYSTON]

Can anyone provide some specific reason why they would purchase Cisco Converged Access vs Meraki?

[Scott Fella]

Preference and at the end... Cost$$$  CA and Meraki are intended for small to mid size and depends also on if you want cloud management vs traditional local management.  They are targeted for different kinds of customers in a way.  There is a big price tag difference also. 

-Scott

[RON ROYSTON]

No.

Meraki is Massively scalable, up to 10,000 APs.  

CA

●   Scale with distributed wired and wireless data plane: The distributed wired and wireless data plane enables enterprises to scale to a 480G data plane per switching stack, up to 40G (Cisco Catalyst 3850 switches) and 60 G (Cisco 5760 wireless controllers) wireless throughput, 72K access points, and 864K wireless clients supported by Cisco 5760 wireless controllers or WiSM2 modules, delivering the largest Layer 3 mobility domains and highest scalability in the industry

[Scott Fella]

What it can support via hardware and what actually really works in production is very different. When you implement many various wireless designs, you will see what works where.  Converged Access if you speak with their product team, there are issues with campus designs and they have scaled back to stating its best to implement CA in small to mid size for now. If your a Cisco partner, you would get this info first hand. We still push the AireOS over CA and have moved to the 8510's for larger deployments.  Meraki is a different product type to scale to different types of vertcle. Any vendors product can scale, but why do you choose one over the other?  It's reputation, how well it has scaled in the past, how you want to mange it, support and cost. 

-Scott

[RON ROYSTON]

Thanks for the input.

AireOS, as in Airespace aquired by Cisco in '05, is based on a dead-end centralized controller based architecture, right?

Meraki, acquired by Cisco in '12, delivers the richest features and functionality in a scalable manner.  I really don't know the details of their architecture.  I understand that it is patented.

Patent application number	Title	Published
20080304427	Node Self-Configuration And Operation In A Wireless Network - A device performs a self-configure process for operations in a managed network to allocate a network address for the device by determining if the device will operate as a gateway of the managed network, obtaining a network address for communication with external devices outside of the managed network in response to determining that the device will operate as a gateway, scanning for neighbor devices operating in the managed network and maintaining a database of neighbor devices located in the scanning, and selecting a managed network to join based on the database of neighbor devices in response to determining that the device will operate as a node.	12-11-2008
20080294759	System and Method For Hosted Network Management - A hosted network management solution for communications over a computer network supports data communication across a network in accordance with a network message protocol such that communications are established between a network host and a node device. The and the node device performs a self-configuring operation in which the network host identifies a network owner associated with the hosted network, and maintains a persistent network connection path between the network host and the node device for the exchange of network packet messages. The network host retrieves message data from the network packet messages it receives from the node device and performs network management operations to provide a user management interface to the identified network owner. The hosted network management enables more convenient setup and configuration for the network owner and provides more complete and effective network management tools.	11-27-2008
20080288614	Client Addressing And Roaming In A Wireless Network - A managed network receives client device requests for network addresses for communications over the managed network and computes a network address for a client device based on a hardware address of the client device, such as the MAC address of the client device, and returns the network address to the client device along with a predetermined gateway address for communications over the managed network with external networks. The MAC address is hashed to the network address that is assigned such that the client address will always receive the same network address whenever it accesses the managed network.	11-20-2008
20080285575	System and Method For Remote Monitoring And Control Of Network Devices - A managed network provides unique network addresses that are assigned to nodes such that no two nodes will have the same address in the managed network and such that each node will always have the same network address regardless of changing its location or changing the network to which it is joined. The nodes, communicating together, comprise a mesh network. Remote management and control of the nodes is possible from the host server, which is located outside of the mesh network, even if a node is located behind a firewall or network address translator (NAT), because server management messages are encapsulated within headers so that a persistent connection between the node and the external host server is maintained once the node sends a message to the host.	11-20-2008
20080285483	Client Operation For Network Access - A network traffic device for a managed network can operate as a client host, to receive packets from the managed network and forward them to an uplinked external network, thereby operating as a gateway to the uplink network and performing a network address translation (NAT) function for the managed network relative to the uplinked network.	11-20-2008

[Scott Fella]

It is not dead. It's prefered. 

-Scott