Help w/Cisco Router Products

[NYC]

Happy Holidays Cisco Community! 

I am looking through the different Cisco Routers that are listed on the Cisco Website and trying to pick out a router and am finding some difficulty.

I am looking for a border router for my enterprise data center that supports full BGP tables with 4GB-8GB of memory for future growth but preferably more for doing soft inbound reconfiguration with IPv4 & IPv6 on 4 peers.

I want a router with 10G interfaces with SFP+ optics, however, built-in interfaces or the ability to add interfaces with higher speeds would be nice to have for future updates (25G -> 100G max).

Most importantly, I want the closest possible thing to traditional IOS... I have not worked with the SD-WAN images, but correct me if I am wrong, are these SD-WAN images more GUI driven? It just seems to me that every router I look is SD-WAN and I am looking for a traditional IOS experience. Any feedback on this specifically would be greatly appreciated.. am I missing something and can I do all the traditional IOS command-line configuration with these routers, the majority of which on the Cisco site seem to be SD-WAN routers now-a-days?

Thank you so much in advance for helping out an old router guy.

[Flavio Miranda]

@NYC 

 SDWAN is one alternative if you have SDWAN Controller. But, IOS-XE is all around.   believe the best router model for you would be C8500 

Cisco Catalyst 8500 Series Edge Platforms Data Sheet - Cisco

[Joseph W. Doherty]

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@Flavio Miranda wrote:

@NYC 

 SDWAN is one alternative if you have SDWAN Controller. But, IOS-XE is all around.   believe the best router model for you would be C8500 

Cisco Catalyst 8500 Series Edge Platforms Data Sheet - Cisco

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The Catalyst 8500 series, certainly a possibility.

As might be the ASR 1000 series.

@NYC you really need to further determine what you want the router to support.. Big difference supporting 4 10g peers vs. 4 100g peers.

[NYC]

Yes I was looking at the ASR 1000 initially but it is already EOL.. 8500 might make sense I just hope the 100K prices I'm seeing are incorrect. I am coming from a 2921 so any router that has 10G or 25G or 40G interfaces and with 8G+ RAM will be a major upgrade, assuming it is actually a router and not a route switch with FIB/CAM memory limits... It just seems like the router lineup has gotten a bit more confusing in recent times

[Joseph W. Doherty]

Yep, the ASR 1k is nearly EoL and the 8k series appears to be its successor.

Upgrading from a 2921 (NB:  Cisco recommended for only 50 Mbps, duplex) to a 100 gig capable router, that's quite an upgrade.

Hmm, you may find the $100K price is correct.  Other than the upgrade promo Leo provided, to bring the price down, you'll likely need to consider a less powerful router.  Again, carefully consider your needs.  If you're replacing the 2921, you have, again, a huge span in performance between it and a 100 gig capable router.

The 8200s can handle wire speed for multiple gig ports and the 8300s can support 10g.  But if you want to get into ports beyond 10g, looks like you'll need to consider the 8500 series.

Have you tried Cisco's router selection tool?

It does appear the Catalyst 8K routers, are routers, but with even better hardware acceleration.  Using Catalyst, is confusing, but then so was the 6500/7600 which could use the same sup, same line cards, same IOS, but the former was a switch and the latter a router.

[Leo Laohoo]

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@Joseph W. Doherty wrote:
If you're replacing the 2921, you have, again, a huge span in performance between it and a 100 gig capable router.

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And the most important part of this conversation is stability:  The new IOS-XE operating system is not in any way, shape or form stable in comparison to classic IOS. 

Maintaining an IOS-XE router is (very) manpower extensive because, unlike classic IOS, IOS-XE memory-leaks like a sieve!  Regular and constant reboot is needed to stem the memory leaks and no amount of upgrades or SMU is going to fix it, sadly.

TIP:  Do not buy what cannot be afforded.  The vendor might make a strong attempt to up-sell a product called Catalyst Centre.  No matter what price or discount they offer, sit down first, and ask for the renewal cost. 

Unlike in classic IOS, to measure the health of a router or a switch, we just look at the memory utilization (sh process memory sorted) or the CPU utilization (sh process cpu history).  In IOS-XE, this is now compartmentalized and sub-divided into the control-plane, data-plane and the QFP (Quantum Flow Process -- something like an "accelarator" or proxy).  

DNAC (now called Catalyst Centre) only looks at the data-plane.  DNAC will not look at the control-plane nor the health of the QFP.  DNAC will also not flag or alert if the memory utilization is >90%.  

I have had IOS-XE routers, switches & 9800 WLC crash because the control-plane had a memory leak.  I had routers crash because the QFP crashed and took the entire router down.  

I now watch memory utilization of the control-plane every week.  If the memory utilization goes >45%, it does not take long before it hits 90%.  

[Joseph W. Doherty]

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@Leo Laohoo wrote:

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@Joseph W. Doherty wrote:
If you're replacing the 2921, you have, again, a huge span in performance between it and a 100 gig capable router.

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And the most important part of this conversation is stability:  The new IOS-XE operating system is not in any way, shape or form stable in comparison to classic IOS. 

Maintaining an IOS-XE router is (very) manpower extensive because, unlike classic IOS, IOS-XE memory-leaks like a sieve!  Regular and constant reboot is needed to stem the memory leaks and no amount of upgrades or SMU is going to fix it, sadly.

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Also sadly, we're running out of platforms that run IOS and not IOS-XE.

I too am a huge fan of stability, and I too remember, saying things like, "What, your Cisco platform only has 13 years of uptime?  I have one with 17 years of uptime."; and of course someone would top that.

[NYC]

I was thinking the C8500 also, but I noticed that most sites (CDW, etc) have this listed as a "Switch" .. Internally, is it a switch with a routing component (IE. a layer3 switch) I would like a device that has the RIB limit to be the DRAM installed, not the CAM FIB limits you would run into on a switch...  And the sticker price is alarming... I saw CDW has the C8500-12X4QC listed as $100K !  for a 1U router...

I am coming from a 2921 with 2.5 gigs of RAM and it's still running full peers today, but I am of course looking to future proof by making this investment. 

[Flavio Miranda]

On the Data sheet, it is describded as router not switch but it seems it have more interface then an usuall router.

If you intend to move on with Cisco and, given your requirements, there are not much more option. ASR1000 is going to retirement soon as you already know.

[Leo Laohoo]

It is because Cisco started calling the 8k routers "Catalyst".  

Wireless Access Points and Wireless LAN Controllers, phones (CP-9800), CBS/SMB switches (1200 & 1300) are also called "Catalyst".

[Joseph W. Doherty]

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@NYC wrote:

I am coming from a 2921 with 2.5 gigs of RAM and it's still running full peers today, but I am of course looking to future proof by making this investment. 

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The only really future proofing for Cisco network equipment, is buying equipment early in its lifecycle, so Cisco doesn't pull the support rug out from under you in a year or two.  Although if you buy more capable equipment then you need, you do help future proof Cisco's continued existence, in improving their current bottom line.  ; )

[Joseph W. Doherty]

What series and/or models have you looked at so far?

How many interfaces, and what bandwidths?  Whatever the mix, wire-speed capable for all, concurrently?

You do realize, there's likely to be a huge cost delta as you raise the bandwidth processing capacity?  If you see a possible dramatic jump in bandwidth capacity, but more than a couple of years out, you might be better considering purchase of that capacity then, rather than now.

". . . preferably more for doing soft inbound reconfiguration . . ."  really?  You sure those peers wouldn't support BGP route refresh or you really need soft inbound for some reason that route refresh won't suffice?

[NYC]

Thank you all for the replies.... I was just a bit concerned that SD-WAN routers lock me into a SD-WAN model, but I also came across the following in my research of IOS XE:

To disable SD-WAN mode on a Cisco router, you need to access the router's configuration and use the command "no controller-mode" which essentially switches the device from "controller mode" (SD-WAN enabled) back to "autonomous mode" (standard routing functionality)

I definitely should have mentioned interface speeds... We will probably be peering with providers over 10G Links and require SFP+ at a minimum as this will be over fiber. But it will be nice to be able to go up to 25G or 40G..

I am seriously considering C8500-12X4QC, I know a couple of you mentioned 8500 series, I am starting to lean that way as well. 

[NYC]

Does anyone know if the C8500-12X4QC functions as a router or a switch? I am concerned with the RIB being limited by the TCAM on the ASICs instead of the DRAM... is this a valid concern for this platform?

[Flavio Miranda]

It seems it use both

https://www.ciscolive.com/c/dam/r/ciscolive/emea/docs/2024/pdf/BRKARC-2885.pdf

At the end, there is a comparison with ASR1000