11-14-2015 07:47 PM - edited 03-08-2019 02:42 AM
Hello everyone,
I was wondering if someone could answer my question, as I've been pondering about it for a while now.
This has something to do about modern hubs and their functionality.
I'm aware that hubs can only run at half duplex because of the nature of how hubs work, and running at half duplex means that the max speed should be 10mbit, going higher would cause collisions. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)
Seeing how hubs running at 100mbit and 1gbit actually exists, I was wondering how is that actually possible without causing collisions?
I thank everyone for your time and I really appreciate it if someone could give me a detailed answer on my question.
Solved! Go to Solution.
11-15-2015 04:17 AM
Tsubakura and Masoud,
I'm aware that hubs can only run at half duplex because of the nature of how hubs work, and running at half duplex means that the max speed should be 10mbit, going higher would cause collisions.
There is no relation between the duplex mode and the maximum supported speed. Whether you can use full or half duplex is entirely dependent on whether the network medium and the attached devices are capable of carrying communication in both directions at the same time. With TP cabling, there is no risk of introducing collisions on the same cable - 10 and 100 Mbps Ethernet variants use different pairs in the cable for Tx and Rx directions, and 1Gbps+ variants intentionally use all four pairs in both directions with echo cancellation. A properly installed TP cabling is never the cause of a collision, and so the capability of doing half or full duplex is up to the capabilities of the network interface cards attached to this medium. You have correctly mentioned that by their nature, Ethernet hubs have never, and will never, support full duplex. Switches, on the other hand, inherently support full duplex.
The issue with collisions truly lies in the delay, also called the latency, between the sending device starting to transmit signals, and another station receiving these signals. This latency primarily consists of two independent components: the propagation delay, which is the time the signal needs to propagate over a particular medium, taking into account the medium's material and length, and the processing delay in a hub caused by the need of the hub to reinterpret the received signals as individual bits and reoriginate those bits on its remaining ports. If these delays were virtually zero, there would be almost no collision even with hubs (although the operation of the network would still need to be half-duplex because of the way hubs interally operate). Having immediate information about other station transmitting signals would prevent other senders from colliding with the original sender.
However, obviously, the propagation delay and the processing delay is far from being zero. Precisely this total delay is the primary reason for a limit of how many repeaters and/or hubs can be daisy-chained to keep collisions at a reasonable rate and detectable within the first 64 bytes of a frame (the shortest allowable frame). If too many hubs are daisy-chained, the incurred delay will result into increased number of collisions including late collisions (collisions occurring after the first 64 bytes of a frame have already been transmitted) which may go entirely undetected, and will have a detrimental effect on the network performance. This was also the reason why in 1Gbps Ethernet, the minimum frame length had to be artifically increased from 64 to 512 bytes because the time to send 64 bytes on a 1Gbps Ethernet was simply not long enough for the signal to propagate across the network.
The issues with the latency and its relation to collisions were also visible with hubs as the Ethernet speeds increased. With 10Mbps Ethernet, a rule of thumb was to have at most 3 hubs daisy-chained and yet maintain a proper network operation. With 100Mbps Ethernet, hubs came in two different so-called classes. Class 1 hub was guaranteed to introduce a delay of at most 140 bit-times, but this was already considered to be excessive enough, and as a result, you could use at most one Class 1 hub in a network and never connect it to any other hub. Class 2 hubs were guaranteed to introduce a delay of at most 92 bit-times and it was allowed to connect two Class 2 hubs together (but no more).
Gigabit Ethernet hubs were extremely rare - I have never actually seen any. They have been defined by the standard but I don't think they have ever been commercially successful as at that time, switches already - fortunately - took over. I believe, however, that it was not allowed to daisy-chain Gigabit Ethernet hubs, similar to Class 1 FastEthernet hubs.
Seeing how hubs running at 100mbit and 1gbit actually exists, I was wondering how is that actually possible without causing collisions?
With hubs, you always have collisions. That is true for 10Mbps, 100Mbps, and 1Gbps Ethernet variants of Ethernet hubs without any exception. Whether the rate of collisions in different Ethernet variants was different is another story - but it would seem to me that with the ability of the electronics to operate faster with lower latencies, and with sticking to the limitations of how many hubs you were allowed to daisy-chain, there were no significant differences.
Higher speed increases a little bit possibilty of colission
This is true but it has to be mentioned that this is primarily caused by the propagation delay on the medium. If the medium latency was negligible, going to higher speeds would not impact the probability of a collision - because with higher speeds, the entire network card operates faster, including its ability to send and read bits, recognize signals, etc.
Higher speed hubs usually are offered with a fewer number of interfaces
To be entirely honest, I haven't noticed this. But I have never truly seen a hub, even for 10Mbps that had more than 16, perhaps at most 24 ports. Hubs were really a device from 10Mbps-Ethernet-era. 100Mbps Ethernet hubs were rare, and 1Gbps hubs - I doubt they have been seriously manufactured and sold - haven't seen one in my life.
Best regards,
Peter
11-14-2015 08:43 PM
Hello,
The speed of 10M is the legacy of the hub speed. Now, hubs work at higher speed.
Higher speed increases a little bit possibilty of colission, but number of ports and users are the most infuential parameters for collision. Why is that? Because Hub has a shared bus and simply copies the signal it recieves. When there are the higher number of interfaces, the chance of sending signals to the shared bus is higher.
It is not possible without collision. Collision will happen regardless of speed. When speed is higher, detection and correcting of collision is faster so it somehow cancels out the higher number of collisions.
Higher speed hubs usually are offered with a fewer number of interfaces and connecting several hubs has limitation.
Hope it helps,
Masoud
11-15-2015 04:17 AM
Tsubakura and Masoud,
I'm aware that hubs can only run at half duplex because of the nature of how hubs work, and running at half duplex means that the max speed should be 10mbit, going higher would cause collisions.
There is no relation between the duplex mode and the maximum supported speed. Whether you can use full or half duplex is entirely dependent on whether the network medium and the attached devices are capable of carrying communication in both directions at the same time. With TP cabling, there is no risk of introducing collisions on the same cable - 10 and 100 Mbps Ethernet variants use different pairs in the cable for Tx and Rx directions, and 1Gbps+ variants intentionally use all four pairs in both directions with echo cancellation. A properly installed TP cabling is never the cause of a collision, and so the capability of doing half or full duplex is up to the capabilities of the network interface cards attached to this medium. You have correctly mentioned that by their nature, Ethernet hubs have never, and will never, support full duplex. Switches, on the other hand, inherently support full duplex.
The issue with collisions truly lies in the delay, also called the latency, between the sending device starting to transmit signals, and another station receiving these signals. This latency primarily consists of two independent components: the propagation delay, which is the time the signal needs to propagate over a particular medium, taking into account the medium's material and length, and the processing delay in a hub caused by the need of the hub to reinterpret the received signals as individual bits and reoriginate those bits on its remaining ports. If these delays were virtually zero, there would be almost no collision even with hubs (although the operation of the network would still need to be half-duplex because of the way hubs interally operate). Having immediate information about other station transmitting signals would prevent other senders from colliding with the original sender.
However, obviously, the propagation delay and the processing delay is far from being zero. Precisely this total delay is the primary reason for a limit of how many repeaters and/or hubs can be daisy-chained to keep collisions at a reasonable rate and detectable within the first 64 bytes of a frame (the shortest allowable frame). If too many hubs are daisy-chained, the incurred delay will result into increased number of collisions including late collisions (collisions occurring after the first 64 bytes of a frame have already been transmitted) which may go entirely undetected, and will have a detrimental effect on the network performance. This was also the reason why in 1Gbps Ethernet, the minimum frame length had to be artifically increased from 64 to 512 bytes because the time to send 64 bytes on a 1Gbps Ethernet was simply not long enough for the signal to propagate across the network.
The issues with the latency and its relation to collisions were also visible with hubs as the Ethernet speeds increased. With 10Mbps Ethernet, a rule of thumb was to have at most 3 hubs daisy-chained and yet maintain a proper network operation. With 100Mbps Ethernet, hubs came in two different so-called classes. Class 1 hub was guaranteed to introduce a delay of at most 140 bit-times, but this was already considered to be excessive enough, and as a result, you could use at most one Class 1 hub in a network and never connect it to any other hub. Class 2 hubs were guaranteed to introduce a delay of at most 92 bit-times and it was allowed to connect two Class 2 hubs together (but no more).
Gigabit Ethernet hubs were extremely rare - I have never actually seen any. They have been defined by the standard but I don't think they have ever been commercially successful as at that time, switches already - fortunately - took over. I believe, however, that it was not allowed to daisy-chain Gigabit Ethernet hubs, similar to Class 1 FastEthernet hubs.
Seeing how hubs running at 100mbit and 1gbit actually exists, I was wondering how is that actually possible without causing collisions?
With hubs, you always have collisions. That is true for 10Mbps, 100Mbps, and 1Gbps Ethernet variants of Ethernet hubs without any exception. Whether the rate of collisions in different Ethernet variants was different is another story - but it would seem to me that with the ability of the electronics to operate faster with lower latencies, and with sticking to the limitations of how many hubs you were allowed to daisy-chain, there were no significant differences.
Higher speed increases a little bit possibilty of colission
This is true but it has to be mentioned that this is primarily caused by the propagation delay on the medium. If the medium latency was negligible, going to higher speeds would not impact the probability of a collision - because with higher speeds, the entire network card operates faster, including its ability to send and read bits, recognize signals, etc.
Higher speed hubs usually are offered with a fewer number of interfaces
To be entirely honest, I haven't noticed this. But I have never truly seen a hub, even for 10Mbps that had more than 16, perhaps at most 24 ports. Hubs were really a device from 10Mbps-Ethernet-era. 100Mbps Ethernet hubs were rare, and 1Gbps hubs - I doubt they have been seriously manufactured and sold - haven't seen one in my life.
Best regards,
Peter
11-15-2015 05:18 AM
Hey Peter,
Nice Expalnation and I am 100% sure your students are lucky to have you as there professor ...:)
+5 from my side..
-GI
11-15-2015 06:31 AM
Hey Ganesh,
Thank you - this is immensely, immensely kind of you! I hope it doesn't come off as hollow posturing when I say that I would rather not comment on whether my students are lucky - I can only hope for it.
Best regards,
Peter
11-15-2015 06:05 AM
Hello Peter,
I think there is mixed concept of hub and switch in the market when third parties sell their products.
Masoud
11-15-2015 07:20 AM
Hi Masoud,
In older materials, collisions were categorized as either local, remote, or late, and this categorization is actually helpful to explain how the collisions were detected. This is probably going to be more extensive but you may find it interesting.
Local collisions referred to the type of collisions that actually occured on the same medium that interconnected two or more senders. The characteristic symptom of these collisions was the violation of link coding - invalid voltage levels, invalid signal state transitions, their frequency and ordering, etc. that was the result of two or more independent signal transmissions being superimposed onto each other. Detecting a collision could theoretically be based on simply detecting whenever these rules of link coding were violated. The circuitry on a NIC should always know it because it knows whether it was able to follow the signal and decode it bit by bit, or whether it lost its track. Alternatively, with more advanced digital signal processing technology, you could try listening to the media at the same time you are sending, and subtract your transmitted signal from the signal present on the medium. This difference should always be zero (or equal to a background noise). If, however, someone else is transmitting as well, this difference will be nonzero, and is therefore an indication of a collision.
Local collisions as described above were typical on coaxial Ethernets. However, on TP cabling where Tx and Rx pairs are independent, local collision is not detected by violated link coding (because these transmissions can never be superimposed onto each other), but rather simply by sensing an incoming transmission on the Rx pair whenever another transmission was being sent over the Tx pair. This assumes, of course, that half duplex is in use. If full duplex was used, seeing transmissions both on Rx and Tx pairs would be entirely normal.
If two stations connected to a hub via a TP cable start transmitting data simultaneously, this will be registered as a local collision inside the hub (a hub has yet another means of detecting a local collision apart from the means mentioned above - simply by seeing that more than one of its ports is receiving a transmission in the same moment). The hub only needs to transmit whatever it could read from the stations back to these stations over their Rx pairs to make them see that while they're transmitting, someone else is transmitting, too. This will be registered as a collision by the stations attached to the hub.
Note that with a hub, the collision does not occur in the cable itself, as opposed to coax cabling. Receiving and sending signals over the same TP cable in the same time does not alone result into collision. Rather, what is considered a collision is the fact that during half duplex operation, a station started receiving a transmission on the Rx pair while it was sending data on the Tx pair.
I have mentioned remote collisions. Remote collisions are local collisions as seen from another port on the same repeater (or a hub, for that matter). In other words, if two stations on a common coaxial cable segment jump into each other's transmission, that is a local collision with all its link coding violations etc. However, if this coax cable is connected to a repeater, this repeater will attempt to read and make sense of the incoming mess - and while it won't be intelligible, it will nonetheless attempt to interpret it bit by bit and regenerate these bits on its other port. On the other port of this repeater, we won't see any link coding violations because a repeater (or a hub) does not simply amplify signals, rather, it reinterprets the incoming signal as bits and then sends these bits anew from scratch. We will only see the frames that are shorter than the minimal length, that are misaligned (they do not end on byte boundaries), and obviously, whose checksum is invalid. These frames, sometimes also called collision fragments, do not register as collisions on the receiving NICs, only as invalid frames - too short, misaligned, wrong CRC. On hubs, remote collision is what all other listening (not transmitting) stations will see while some senders end up in colliding with each other.
Lastly, a late collision is a collision, local or remote, that occurs after the first 64 bytes of a frame were already sent. This collision is an indication of a faulty network because if the network was built according to standards, this would never have happened. Late collisions were usually caused by excessively long cabling and/or chaining too many repeaters or hubs together. They are notoriously difficult to detect because some NICs do not check for collision after the first 64 bytes of a frame have been sent. Thus, a frame can end up destroyed in a collision, while the NIC thinks the frame has been sent properly.
I think there is mixed concept of hub and switch in the market when third parties sell their products.
I hope not :) My sincere belief is that you cannot even purchase a hub nowadays. Whatever device to build an Ethernet LAN you get, it is a switch. Do you have a different experience?
Best regards,
Peter
11-15-2015 08:11 AM
Thanks for taking your time to answer my question nicely.
As for purchasing a Hub, If you go to a store and ask for a 4 port Gigaethernet hub, you will probably get an unmanaged switch, not a hub.
Thanks again,
Masoud
11-15-2015 01:28 PM
Hi Masoud,
If you go to a store and ask for a 4 port Gigaethernet hub, you will probably get an unmanaged switch, not a hub.
Well, sure... :) That's the way a device is marketed, but these popular names may not reflect on the the true nature of the device. Also, purchasing devices in a store also reflects on the technical literacy of the store assistants. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them did not sufficiently distinguish between hubs and switches - no offense intended.
Best regards,
Peter
11-15-2015 09:46 AM
Hello Peter,
Thank you for your complete explanation, this pretty much answered my question and everything that I had planned to ask about after.
Best regards,
Tsubakura
11-15-2015 01:46 PM
Tsubakura,
It's a pleasure!
Best regards,
Peter
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