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are hubs ok in a network?

baselzind
Level 6
Level 6

currently i have a branch with over 15 racks and each one is using a small 8 port hub which connects to my main switches. As replacing them with switches would be expensive I was wondering if it is ok to have hubs in the network environment for small separate locations?

28 Replies 28

LOL

Regarding possible "harm", perhaps their biggest risk vector is they don't support any variant of STP.  I.e. you can create L2 loops.

Yet, consider, if you read the reference @MHM Cisco World posted, Cisco also sells a series of unmanaged (non-smart) switches, ranging from 5 ports to 24 ports. If such switches are network death traps, how can Cisco, in good conscience, sell such diabolical devices?!

Or, consider, somehow, smaller networks, like under 100 employees, (successfully) operate day to day using such fiendish switches.

(Why I even remember, decades, ago, recommending upgrading such a sized network from unmanaged 10 Mbps hubs to smart/managed low end Catalyst switches.  Push back was, what we have works, and it did.  But the company was growing, and avoiding the 10 Mbps hub 5-4-3 rule and/or being able to capitalize on full duplex and/or 100 Mbps [for which rules of extending were much more restrictive than the 5-4-2 rule, like max of 3 segment if using Class II FE hubs], were some of the benefits that finally convinced management, upgrading was worthwhile.)

Don't misunderstand, better switches, are just that, better, but you need to balance cost of the "better" to your actual needs and/or risk to not having the "better".

Not to pick on (well not too much) @Leo Laohoo's anecdotally story, if we relate the story of the Titanic's sinking, we might draw the conclusion you should never board a ship with too few lifeboats.  Although that appears to be "good" conclusion, I'm sure the survivors would believe that (like Leo being a survivor of his A Night to Remember), especially the very, very few that survived without being in a lifeboat, it may not be, for multiple reasons, as "good" as it appears at first glance.

(If you want to ponder on the Titanic's sinking, first analyze what many of the victims of the Titanic sinking actually died from, then also review the Andrea Doria and/or the Costa Concordia sinkings and how enough lifeboats for everyone aboard, mattered, or not, for them.  Oh, and for something more modern that being on a ship, when's the last time someone provided you a parachute when you boarded a commercial airliner?)

So, my point to the foregoing, making this kind of decision isn't just based on "harm", but also on the impact of the "harm" and how likely such "harm" might occur.  Using such information, you can make a more rational decision whether you should work to avoid the possible "harm" (like never fly [and hope an airliner doesn't crash on you - which has happened - although, very, very rarely], or just accept the potential "harm" [you might also plan for how to minimize "harm's" impact if it does happen]).

Let's talk a bit more about the most possible likely, the "harm", a L2 loop causes.

Well, first consider you have Enterprise level L2 edge switches, and someone cross links two ports, whether using a patch cable or a unmanaged switch.  Both have created the same L2 loop.  Both, if you don't have portfast enabled, but do have STP enabled, STP should have blocked the second port from joining the L2 topology, i.e. L2 loop is prevented.

If portfast is enabled, and STP is enabled, hopefully (there isn't a 100% guarantee in this case), STP will "see" the L2 loop created and again block a port.

Or, you have your unmanaged switch connected to your managed switch, and someone creates a L2 loop on the just that switch.  The problem with that is, possibly that local unmanaged switch will flood the uplink to the managed switch, at full wire rate.  That, alone, shouldn't be much worse than a host, or hosts, driving uplink to full wire rate.  However, if the traffic being flooded toward the uplink has no known destination within your managed switch network, the managed switch network will flood that traffic to all the ports in the same L2 broadcast domain.  Basically, very much the same effect if I had a single host transmit broadcast packets as (continuous) wire rate.  I.e. again, same effect, even if using all managed switches!  However, an unmanaged switch doing this might be by "accident" whereas the broadcast flood is more likely an intentional DoS, although, possibly, not intentionally done by the host's user.  Another aspect of the unmanaged L2 loop flood, it may be creating a unicast flood, which some managed switches, may not have rate caps for as they sometimes offer for broadcast floods.

So, I would say that using an unmanaged switch does increase the potential for a L2 loop "harm" but by how much, that's very difficult to say.  (Do your users typically cross connect RJ45 wall jacks?)

Above, I mentioned you can plan to mitigate "harm".  Well, if you're running unmanaged switches on edge ports, you might police those ports, that they cannot run wire-rate 100% of the time and/or if managed edge ports are gig, run them at 100 Mbps and/or limit the size of VLANs supporting such edge ports (with the latter, you might even have each such edge port in its own VLAN).  I.e. The forgoing won't preclude there being L2 looping "harm", just that it minimizes the how "harmful" the harm is.

Have you ever heard the saying, there's risk to getting out of your bed in the morning?  Yes, there is, but we often deal with risk, of various degrees, all the time.

Again, other posters are correct, there are many reasons why you don't want to use unmanaged switches, even at all, and if managed switches could be obtained without any additional cost to obtain or maintain or operate, I would believe it foolish to not use them.  However, they do come with additional costs to obtain/maintain/operate.  You (well your business) needs to make a cost vs. benefit assessment, and chose what's "right for you".

I've used unmanaged switches to add some ports, usually temporarily, but even sometimes permanently (as in the case I need just one or a few additional ports, and don't want to purchase another all-up Enterprise grade switch).  Having done such myself, and I have not, yet, have had a problem.

(BTW, when I've done it, for a few extra ports, I often find out, what's going to use these ports, and might "re-patch" so that user facing ports are on the Enterprise switch, but perhaps "move" a network printer to be on the unmanaged switch port.)

To summarize all the above, doing somethings adds risk, and sometimes that risk's potential harm's possibility of happening can be reduced or mitigated if it happens, but you need to consider the trade-offs, i.e. what's important to you.

I would advise not making such decisions based on just, well I heard this story about something very bad happening (like the Titanic sinking) or I head this story about something very good happening (like in my country, the recent 2.04 billion dollar single ticket lottery winner).

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/switches/what-is-a-managed-switch.html#~characteristics

NOTE:- FOCUS on point what topology is limit for unmanaged SW 

 

baselzind
Level 6
Level 6

is there a good cisco replacement switch that is unmanaged and protects from L2 loops?

Not to fault @MHM Cisco World, as that's a good reference, but again, Cisco (on that particular web page) doesn't mention the CBS 220 series.  Possibly, the 220s are "too good" for their price point.  ; )

if not show then I think it EOS

"if not show then I think it EOS"

Well, all four CBS series show on other webpages, like the one you hit entering Cisco.com and working down to SMB switches; and I just looked, but did not find any EOS (or EOL) mention on CBS 220 support page; and last release was 11/2022; and there's even an on-line emulator to take one of the CBS 220s for a "test drive" of what you can configure on it.

So, although EOS (or EOS) might be sometime soon (?), I still suspect it's more likely Cisco is "pushing" the CBS 250 series when you want to jump from unmanaged switches to managed switches.  (BTW, with any vendor, it's to be expected they will push you toward a more expensive product, and the CBS 250 does have features the CBS 220 does not, e.g. L3 static routing, so Caveat Emptor still holds.)

Well done, but, that's for the Cisco 220 Smart Switches which recommends transitioning to the Cisco Business 220 Smart Switches; which is what I've suggested.

I prefer He contact Cisco, and they will recommend to him the right product. 
what import here is that Cisco have some low price SW and can run STP. 
for more detail he must contact Cisco

"I prefer He contact Cisco, and they will recommend to him the right product."

Nothing wrong with OP contacting Cisco.  Indeed they might indeed recommend "the right product".  However, much depends on how you define "right" and/or "right" for whom.

There's always a basic conflict of interest in a seller making "recommendations" to a buyer.  Hence, the age old (again) Caveat Emptor, especially applies.

Also, the forgoing, doesn't necessarily imply conflicts of interest are unethical or underhanded.  For example, Cisco might recommend a device actually more powerful than actually needed to "insure" the don't provide a bad recommendation.  I.e. they don't want the buyer a month from now thinking Cisco recommended a piece of manure.

A possible alternative, might be to a acquire a single CBS 220 and try it out in OP's environment.  Not a huge investment to make to gain real first hand experience in OP's own environment.

"is there a good cisco replacement switch that is unmanaged and protects from L2 loops?"

I wouldn't expect any unmanaged switch to protect against L2 loops, although, interestingly, the CBS 110 switches note they provide a "loop detection" feature (for broadcasts).  Couldn't find any additional information on this "feature".

While looking into that CBS 110 feature, glanced at the specs for the CBS 250 and 350 managed switches (again via @MHM Cisco World's reference).  Surprised what all they do support, including STP support, of course, more expensive than the CBS 110 series.

However, while looking into those two other CBS switch series, came across the CBS 220 series.  Also managed switches, but not as many features as the 250 series, but they also support STP.  (Actually when looking at the CBS 220 and 250 series, feature wise, they remind me of Catalyst 1900 and 2900s, decades ago.  I.e. what was "Enterprise grade" back then.)

A nice table showing major differences between the various CBS switches, from this TechNote.

If you're looking for the least expensive Cisco switch with many to most of "critical" switch features, I would say, the CBS 220 series meets that requirement.  The 220 series looks to be about 2x the cost of the 110 series (perhaps 220 being twice 110 isn't by accident - laugh), but IMO, for business usage, well worth it.

I haven't worked the math, but if you were looking to use, for example, three 8 port unmanaged switches, e.g. CBS 110, one 24  port smart switch, e.g. CBS 220, might be about the same price.

johnlloyd_13
Level 9
Level 9

hi,

if you've got over 15 racks, i'm pretty sure your company has the budget to buy a decent managed switch.

it's just a matter of how you'll justify a network/switch upgrade to your management.